Clemens.
I’ve made my adoration of Roger Clemens no secret – he and Nolan Ryan are my baseball idols, he and Craig Biggio are the reason I fell in love with baseball, and he’s also the primary reason I became a Red Sox fan in the first place. I may have been the only person in the U.S. who adored him because of his giant attitude, not in spite of it. But that’s how I like my Texan pitchers- crazy good on the mound, with a hell of a lot of brashness and balls of steel.
In the wake of the Mitchell Report fallout, I have very purposely not written anything about Roger- not here, not at Ladies…, not at Babes Love Baseball. I’ve avoided addressing the subject in print because I’m utterly confused and conflicted, so I have had no clear perspective or opinion to offer. Losing Roger to retirement was difficult enough- but losing him under the cloud of suspicion that he’s now exited with? Leaves me at a loss for words. The possibility that one of my greatest heroes was a fraud, for at least a period, is less like getting the rug pulled out from underneath and more like destroying the entire landscape of what I’ve known as “baseball”. (<-- hyperbole alert!)
After watching Roger on Sixty Minutes tonight, I still can't sort through the mess. I can't decide if his repeated and strident denials cause me to believe him more... or if his weird fixation on Vioxx and dismissal of the validity of a lie detector cause me believe him less. I do know he is bitterly angry, and I am too. I just can't figure out if I'm angry at him, angry at McNamee, angry at the culture of steroids in baseball-- or angry at myself for being naive when it comes to my idols. Probably all of the above.
So this is the open forum/thread for everyone to discuss The Roger Situation (as I think I will now refer to this debacle) -- because even though I'm conflicted, it's still ludicrous not to talk about it. What did you think of the Sixty Minutes interview? Do you believe him now more, or less? And don’t be worried if you think he’s a big fat liar who got steroids shot in his butt every day since 1997, or if you aren’t sure about the steroids thing but still hate his guts anyway- everyone is allowed to post… so long as you don’t rip on him for being a Longhorn. Some things are just sacred.
EDIT: seems I’m not the only one conflicted after watching the interview- ESPN’s Jerry Crasnick saw the same two Rogers we’ve been discussing in the comments.
I think he started to use them in Toronto. I think that his Boston years were rather clean even if that is a bit of a short sighted though but I think the combination of his stuff falling through and his lethargy with his workout regimen. I think he got into steroids with a bit of a “ehhh I dunno about it” thing and then just well got into it more.
I never liked Roger, for what its worth. I always thought of him as ingenuine and a jerkwad even when he was with the Red Sox. I may have been 10 or 11 when I first started to pay attention to baseball but I could smell a phony from a mile away. I wasn’t able to see the interview, but I hear he basically was completely pissy and sweating bullets like a mofo.
Oh and don’t beat yourself up on the whole feeling naive. I betcha dollars to donuts if Ortiz was ever named on there, every Red Sox fan would be the same way. But I also think that baseball is screwed if he was named.
I don’t know if I believe him or not, but “The higher you get up on the flagpole, the more your butt shows,” is probably the funniest thing I’ve ever heard out of a ballplayer.
It’s funny- because at times during the interview, I was so positive he was telling the truth. And then there was almost as many times when he seemed utterly phony. He was pissy throughout, though- that was a constant.
I feel like I need to photoshop that flagpole quote onto something- like maybe a collage of the American flag, a baseball and glove, and apple pie… with needles scattered around.
I have the transcript up on my site. The interview didn’t change my mind at all. What I really want to know is if he’s going to play in the Bob Hope golf tournament or testify in Congress.
Plus what did he and McNamee talk about the other day.
The best part of the interview to me was how pissed he got when McNamee emailed him about the fishing equipment in Cabo right before the Mitchell Report came out.
I haven’t the faintest idea whether or not I believe he was telling the truth. From experience, in a situation like this one, both stories have elements of truth in them.
Both Clemens and McNamee seem to both be not totally up-front.
I mean, there’s part of me that doesn’t care. Maybe I was too young to really remember Clemens in his glory days? (sorry, but I honestly don’t remember them)
Sadly this also places me squarely in the generation where pro athletes are not known to be moral paragons. So I was not shocked by anything in the Mitchell Report, or any denials, or any interviews. It all kind of sounds like accusations and denials I’ve heard a million times before, for all kinds of crimes.
God, that’s depressing.
4 minutes into this 60 Minutes interview and Clemens must have said, “Never happened.” at least 10 times!!!! WOW…he looks so angry.
I wish I could remember all of those tricks to tell if someone was lying. There is a part of me that really wants to believe him…the same part that really wants him to be telling the truth. The whole thing felt oddly similar to Bill Clinton insisting he did not have sex with Monica.
TG, this must be tough for you! If Roger were a hero of mine…well, I think we’ve recently established my low meltdown threshold. ;)
It looked like he was lying to me – lots of blinking, repeating things, and I thought the ‘logic’ of his pat explanation of why McNamee would lie was pretty weak. And how about his suggestion for a suitable punishment for steroid users? “It’s its own punishment.” Convenient.
FWIW, I thought Mike Wallace was completely lame. I’ve seen him really grill people and this was clearly not that kind of interview.
sshark: “I did not have butt-ual relations with that steroids needle!”
Also- yeah, Ian: the Cabo story was hilarious. Hilariously awful- that does royally suck for a guy to have ratted you out in a major way behind your back, and then call you the day before the Mitchell Report is released to ask to borrow your fishing equipment… without, you know, mentioning the shit that is about to go down.
fc: The whole thing was filled with weird backflips of justification and odd answers. That “steroids is its own punishment” logic was particularly weird- and phony.
It’s like when Mike Wallace asked Roger if he’d testify before Congress if called, and he’s all “Yeah! I’d repeat everything I’ve told you under oath!”– which made me think that if he’d risk perjury, he’s got to be telling the truth. Then he followed that up by saying, “And I’d probably tell them more, like stuff about the Vioxx question” — which is a total shady diversionary tactic, and not at all related to whether or not he did steroids.
In the interest of full disclosure: I thought Roger Rocket was great when he was with the Sox but wrote him off when he joined the Yankees and to my mind started acting like a jackass – so I’m hardly objective.
TG…YES…exactly! Think McNamee has a stained towlette somewhere? EEEEWWWW…
The whole “I’d say more about the Vioxx thing” was a bit suspicious, no? I was really interested by that. Way to be subtle, Rog.
And I’ve never been a big Roger fan. I mean, when he left the Sox, I was three years old, and by the time I was into baseball he was on the Yankees. For that reason, I’ve always associated him with “the enemy”, almost. All I really know of him is that he’s crazy good and would have made the HoF in a heartbeat had he not had this cloud of suspicion around him about steroids.
And in the interview, I thought he sounded sincere a couple times, but it seemed completely transparent other times. At the very beginning, when he asked how you could prove yourself innocent, I was inclined to sympathize, but it just seemed like he was dodging questions the whole rest of the way through (almost like A-Rod did in his 60 Minutes interview, actually).
I think he did do them, thought he wouldn’t get caught and is pissed that he was. He probably feels very betrayed by McNamee, who was likely a trusted friend, and seemed genuinely hurt and “sad upset” when he talked about him, while the rest of the time he seemed “pissed upset.” The blinking, sweating, and strange logic just made it seem like he was lying, and that what he was saying was rehearsed.
He’s probably very regretful, not just because he was found out, but because he DID put his body through hell (workout-wise, injury-wise and PED-wise) to be able to pitch longer, and all of his accomplishments post-97 are on the verge of not mattering any more. He has to be thinking of what that stuff will mean for him and his family down the road, as it’s likely he could have health issues, and it’s probably a lot more difficult knowing that his name will be tainted now and that the extra risk was really pointless.
The way he went on about potential health problems due to Vioxx makes me wonder if he’s keeping that as a handy explanation for any long term effects of…whatever.
I admit I’m leaning towards Meg’s take. I totally bought that he was genuinely surprised and hurt by McNamee turning on him, and I also totally bought his concerns about hurting his body. But when he tried to offer as proof that he didn’t do steroids that “why would I do something that would hurt my body and shorten my career?” — it almost sounded like he was trying to convince himself. Like he had a period of weakness/stupidity/whatever where he was able to convince himself that steroids were OK… and now he realizes that’s not the case. And he’s also realizing that steroids period now taints everything else he accomplished.
Total conjecture, mind you.
OOH OOH OOH HAPPY BIRTHDAY JON LESTER!
Oh and about Roger Clemens…I was raised to give him the same regards as the Bulger brothers. That’s as much as I can tell you.
Roger, dear Roger. You who have thrilled us with your pitching prowess, intensive workouts, well-known work ethic, winner of the Cy Young award (multiple times!!), standard bearer of growing older and better, are in serious, serious need of a media consultant, Your persona last night was of an angry, angry man looking for a scapegoat. You came across as someone whose anger may be clouding your ability to broker an agreement where the truth can come out in a way that does limited, if any damage. But if you continue to insist that this is a he said, he said tale, you will further the conflict, confusion and finger pointing.
I offer this advice for free, as I am not beholden to your power or money. I offer this advice as a fan of the game of baseball.
Full disclosure: I’m a huge Rocket fan, and FWIW, I buy every bit of his answer to Mike Wallace’s question last night about how he continues to compete at age 45: “Not impossible. You do it with hard work.” His work ethic has long been legendary.
But…”Never happened?” Man, I REALLY want to believe him. Clearly he is upset and emotional and I agree with Meg and TG that a lot of that probably stems from the fact that he feels betrayed by McNamee (I mean, you borrowed the guy’s fishing gear and left this out? Really? ).
But I’m having a hard time believing him. What the HELL was all that Vioxx talk? And “self-inflicted penalty?!” C’mon.
A doctor friend says that Rocket’s claim that he was injected in the buttocks with lidocaine doesn’t ring true because lidocaine is a local anesthetic, not a systemic one (like acetaminophen) — so that injections of lidocaine in the buttocks for, say, a sore knee, would be ineffective. Anyone else heard this theory?
Anyway, TG, thanks for the invitation to post our thoughts about the interview. As we’ve all said, it’s complete speculation, but I’ve got a sinking feeling…
If I wasn’t convinced he was a weasel before the interview, I certainly am now.
Why did he not acknowledge the B12 injections right away instead of weeks later, when it looks like he’s trying to explain his behavior?
Andy Pettit is supposed to be a friend-Roger threw him under the bus pretty fast in order to distance himself
When discussing McNamee calling him just prior to the Mitchell report coming out, Roger talked about the fact that McNamee didn’t reveal what he had said to investigators and to paraphrase, Roger said McNamee didn’t say “How are we going to explain this”. Explain what? If nothing happened, why would McNamee need to warn Roger they would have to figure out a way to explain something?
The whole Vioxx B.S.
If he was doing steroids, he’d have a 3rd ear coming out of his forehead? Like all the other guys who do steroids?
McNamme has nothing to gain by making up a story like this. Roger has everything to lose, and he looked like a big,fat liar. He’s thinking that since no one has come forward to say they supplied steroids, he’s covered.
I grew up with the Rocket pitching in Boston and at the time that he left (or was forced out by Duquette), I felt very sorry for him. I thought he had been treated unfairly and poorly by Red Sox management. However, since his departure, he’s turned into a complete jerk and I hardly have any sympathy for him, no matter how much he would have been justified based on the way he was treated.
That being said, my take on the interview was “Roger doth protest too much”. The emphatic denials within the first few minutes were understandable but excessive. And then his whole meltdown into the effects of steroids (third ear? Really? Don’t we all know by now that steroids balloons the head and shrinks the boys? Ask Barry!) followed by his Vioxx rant was ridiculous. I agree with those who have said that I think he’s saving the Vioxx thing as an explanation of his “broken down tendons” and the like. The whole tone of the interview was kind of skeevy, with his darting and shifting around of this eyes. And as WEEI pointed out this morning, he was SOO uncomfortable during the interview, which was conducted on his terms in his own house by his old friend. And he just came off as angry and defensive. What’s he going to act like in front of Congress??
I do agree with Meg that the one part I really believed was the utter betrayal he felt by McNamee’s actions. Everything else just seemed so ingenuine.
Finally – I pointed this out to my husband last night during the interview, but am glad that Suzanne pointed it out as well. Lidocaine IS a local anesthestic – usually used in hospitals before suturing or administration of IVs. She’s completely correct that it would not have helped any swollen joints or the like. All Roger would have felt is a numb butt for a while. If he can’t differentiate between the effects of being injected with lidocaine with that of being injected with steroids, he’s got a lot bigger problems.
Wow, watching the press conference now. However this turns out, one thing’s for sure: this is a tragedy. I feel bad for the guy, even if this was all self inflicted. We’re watching someone’s undoing.
According to an AP article (that I found through those sometimes annoying but sometimes helpful news links on the Yahoo mail page), McNamee said a bunch of really desperate things in a recorded phone conversation that Roger played at the press conference.
“What do you want me to do? I’ll go to jail, I’ll do whatever you want.”
“You treated me like family.”
“I’m in your corner. I’d also like not to go to jail, too.”
“I’m firing my lawyers. I’m getting rid of everybody. “My wife is gone. My kids are gone.”
Jeez. I feel bad for Clemens, but I almost feel worse for McNamee.
WHY, MLB? WHY don’t you have the press conference video up?
I don’t get it. You call never tested positive Barry Bonds and asshole and defended Roger Clemens?
McNamee’s whole career is on the line. Roger Clemens is the reason he was hired in Toronto AND NY and he had to turn Roger in because he had no choice. He was not allowed to lie while under oath.
He was asking “what Roger wanted him to do” because he didn’t want to turn in his friend the cheater but he had no choice.
I call Barry Bonds an asshole because he’s an asshole – has nothing to do with steroids.
Roger Clemens is also an asshole. He was a jerk when he played here and there were always stories about him refusing autographs to kids or yelling at people for no reasons. Something his defenders never acknowledge.
Again, please read what I wrote: I have said on MULTIPLE occasions that Clemens can be a jerk. You’re not telling me something I don’t know.
Back on the situation… I feel even worse for McNamee. His son is really sick, his wife walked out on him on account of the whole steroid thing, and he’s renting a one-bedroom apartment because the media was swarming his house. Not to mention he gets to see a former best friend say he’s a liar and a backstabber everywhere he looks…
Thank you, thank you, thank you….for saying you still like the guy. I still do, too, there’s just something about him. Even after playing for the Yankees, I still adore him. Always will.